ASE Newsletter 1998-10/11 Issue 27

[Archive]

This is an Archival Posting containing:

From the President

WIFT On Track and In Sync - Fiona Strain introduces the Post production session at the WOW film festival.

USA vs Australia - A review of "The Interview" by Craig Utian

WIFT Mentor Scheme - by Sally Corbett

Mentor Scheme at work: Natalia Ortiz

First Assembly Forum - report by Andrew Brinsmead

Spectrum at Fox Studios - A first look inside as reported by Craig Utian.

Holiday Pay for Editors? - The improbable made possible by James Manche

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- Denise Haslem, El Presidente

1st Assembly Forum, Melbourne
A big thanks to the Melbourne Committee for organising the 1st Assembly Forum and for inviting me to attend. Over 90 people from various sectors of Post Production came to contribute to the open discussion. Throughout the afternoon it became clear that the three areas of features, television and documentary have their own specific needs and problems and that one cannot generalise about post production. There was a call to focus on training in all areas, on work schedules in television, on documentary funding and to a clearer understanding of the role of the post production supervisor. For Melbourne, it was the start of a dialogue that was long overdue and hopefully it will lead to more forums in the future.

Special thanks to Sophie Meyrick of the committee and to the panellists - producers Jane Scott and Daniel Scharf and editors Mark Atkin, Glenn Newnham and Jill Bilcock. (Please see Andrew Brinsmead’s article)

AGM and Election
By now you have all received notification of the AGM starting from 2pm Saturday, November 21 at the Harold Park Hotel, Glebe. If you think you would like to contribute to the ASE, it is so important that you nominate for the committee. Come on board and help guide the direction of ASE activity. There is so much to be done and we want your help.

Throughout the year we are constantly asking for feedback and so little comes that we are often left to our own devices. So the AGM is your chance to have a say, hear what we’ve done, give your feedback, vote and have a drink together. Please don’t think you won’t be missed, that there’ll be others there. You will be missed - YOU ARE NEEDED !!!

It has been such a huge learning curve for me this year and my thanks go to the executive, the committees, sub committees and administrators in both States, who have done so much to help me through and who do so much for the ASE.

It is praiseworthy the time they devote not just to activities such as screenings, discussions, editsearch, training and the newsletter but also to future planning, policies and day to day running of the ASE. On behalf of the membership and from myself, I thank them all.

See you at the AGM.

[Archive]

by Fiona Strain

Introduction to session,
Thank-you to Wift for including this session tonight,Post Production rarely gets a look in most Festivals and being shy creatures that work in dark rooms we are not very practised at public displays of creativity.

The idea of being On Track and in Sync is one that we all aspire to, but these days the track has many paths to follow and sometimes it seems a bit "sink or swim" as we try to avoid being swamped by the ever increasing workpath options.

The AFTRS is sponsoring this session, in particular the Industry Training Fund For Women. This provides training opportunities for women , providing funds to upgrade their skills through short courses and grants for mentorships.

I have been a film Editor since 1985 and am currently Editing Lecturer at AFTRS.

I feel extraordinarily lucky to be involved with the Film School at this point in my career, not only because I have progressed enough to pass on a bit of knowledge , but to be there at a time where technology is doing a major change and I am being exposed to lots of it. I feel a little bit like my kids do when visiting a friends house "they've got so many toys" ! Our Edit suites are multiplying rapidly we now have Avid, Lightworks, Media 100, dAVE, Tape, 16mm and 35mm

General intro
Post production in the past was a simple affair of dealing with celluloid and mag stock. The physical reality of this medium meant a very strict and defined path was followed.

Now we are dealing with much amazing new equipment which means the old paths have a lot of new diversions.

We can shoot on film, scan that film into a computer and add new elements, we can create purely computer generated images and scan those onto film.

There are lots of ways that film comes and goes from one computer to another, travelling along the Post path between the camera, telecine, the picture edit, special effects compositing, offline, online, the sound edit, the creation of titles and graphics, across to the neg matcher, the composer, through to the mix.. It is all held together by a bunch of numbers called an EDL, by pict files, by tiff files, by OMF files, travelling through jazz drives, DLT's scuzzy connecters, fibre channels and somehow coming out the end as sound on film. There must be a great deal of co-ordination between the whole of Post production to ensure it is a smooth trip.

The lines between Production and Post production are becoming a bit blurred, because you can do anything at any stage.

At the moment "Babe 2" is due for completion on November the 14th. You probably saw the Picture in yesterday's Herald of the billboard in New York's Times Square advertising it's release on November 25th.

This film has been in Post production for over a year. At the moment they are doing pretty much the last stage of Post Production - They're mixing. That's not too bad, it gives them about six weeks to complete before they run off the prints. It probably needs the time as it is a big feature, and features generally have around four weeks to do the final mix.

However, while they are mixing they are still shooting, still creating computer animation, still Editing, still laying up their sound tracks. They have 3 Editors, 17 Sound Editors and 3 sound supervisors working at the moment, and not just in Sydney. They are beavering away in Melbourne, Adelaide, London & LA.. They should get it done, but this scenario would not have been possible 5 years ago.

A great deal of planning has to occur in pre - production to allow for this to be a successful venture. There has to be that vital component of Communication. Communication not only between Director and Producer, but between Director, Editor, Designers and Cinematographers, Special effects Compositors, Composers, Sound post, all should be talking at a very early stage, because they are all responsible for maintaining the Directors vision, and ensuring continuity of mood, pace, and colour. They are after all, all telling the same story.

The new paths are not restricted to High Budget features, there are a multitude of new formats which are accessible to lower budget productions and the trick is in getting the right information to the right person at the right stage in the process. There is a lot to learn, a lot to deal with , and it is the Post Production crew who are wrangling the different elements into a film at the end of the day.



Introduction to Panel
I shall now introduce you to our panel who are the director's "Right Hand Women". When I spoke to each of them prior to tonight, it was an interesting common thread that they all used painting analogies when describing their work and I do believe they are all creating works of art.

Veronica Jenet has been the Editor on all of Jane Campion's films , winning an AFI award for Editing "The Piano". She cut "Vacant Possession" for Margot Nash, and has also edited Television drama and documentary. Veronica has cut mostly on film, She is currently Editing "Holy Smoke" on an Avid Film Composer.

Jane Patterson has a ten year background in Feature Sound Editing. She started as an assistant and Foley artist in New Zealand, working on 16mm and 35mm. She came over to Australia as she realised that new technology was gaining an edge, and she needed to access that technology. She did a one year course at the AFTRS , learning the Fairlight system and has gone on to do sound on Films including Oscar and Lucinda, Blackrock, Children of the Revolution and Spider & Rose.

Nerida Tyson-Chew is a Composer with quite a range of experience not only in features, but also Television series, animation, Interactive CD Rom and Theme Park music. She began as a student at the Conservatorium of Music, following that with a Masters degree from the University of Southern California. Her work includes the "Batman" series, Halifax FP, and Features such as Brilliant Lies, and Under The Lighthouse Dancing.

We'll be discussing examples of each of their works and talking about how they deal with their creative and technical responsibilities, but before we do this, in order to explain things in the best way possible, Could we have a show of hands

How many people here are film-makers ?

How many people are intimately involved in the Post Production process ?



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From this followed a discussion that went for two hours, including clips from each speaker, and discussion on their work on a specific project. The discussion focussed very much on working with the Director, the developing of a bond which allows discussion and experimentation in a non-threatening environment for all. They discussed how early they are involved in the project, how much collaboration they have with the Director prior to the production.

A lot of time was spent discussing ways of interpretation, the fact that the Editor, The Sound Editor and the Composer are all working in areas where they are not given any rules to follow, that every film is a new one and every Director is different.

The creation of a film is a complex blend of interpreting not just the story, but the emotional context, the audiences expectations, and balancing the needs of Producers and Distributors with those of the Director. They discussed in some depth the path they travel when approaching a film, the ways they prepare themselves in terms of personal research, and discussion with the Director.

They discussed initial approaches to the film, Veronica mentioned that no matter how many films she has done, she still approaches the first cut with trepidation wondering how she is going to pull it all together into a cohesive film. They discussed the importance of feedback, both from themselves to the Director and the rest of the crew, and how they benefit from the Director’s view and from that of a wider audience.

They all also mentioned how important it is to be involved as a creative team right through to the mix, as this is where all the elements that have been created begin to work as a unified piece. If they are not able to communicate clearly their intentions in terms of mood, why a particular shot has been left a certain length to include a specific type of sound, then all the Editor’s & Sound Editor’s intentions can suffer to the degree that the story is not being told as intended.

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From the raising of the curtain you know an Australian film from any other. It is not the Film Finance Corporation credit or the Australian Film Commission logo. It is not the familiarity of the locations, the face on the screen or even their accent. You know just because of its feel. Once the director has called action there can be no question. The tone, the pace and the dialogue are definitively Australian.

“The Interview” is such a film. It turns every American cop show on its head. In Australia we have been bombarded by the good cop - bad cop scenario. Never before have we had to think about the ethical issues placed on the police, and the politics that go on behind the facade of fairness and justice. Set mainly in an interview room, excellent scripting and strong acting performances mean one is never bored, yearning for a change of senary.

Although “The Interview” reminded me of “Primal Fear” and “The Usual Suspects”, it is distinctively Australian. Australian films tend to rely more on script than special effect, more on acting ability than marketability. Australian directors strive to produce art, rather than commercial ventures. There is no doubt most films are made for financial purposes. Production companies sometimes compromise talent for fame. Hugo Weaving and Tony Martin certainly have a ’market value’, yet relative to large US actors, they are unknown to anyone other than their home audience. This is perhaps because The Australian Film Industry produces far fewer films than the US. We do not churn box office hits out weekly, and because Australian films cannot be categorised in the same commercial way, our actors do not achieve the same ’cult-sex-symbol’ status. I have never seen lines down George Street waiting to by tickets for an Alex Demitriades or Ben Mendehlson film. But Why?

If our acting is better, our characters or genuine, and our stories more provoking, why are the lines not there. Surely we should support ’home grown’ talent - not just because it is an Australian product but because it is a better product.

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Mentoring is an excellent way for less experienced professionals to benefit from the guidance and support of people who have trod the path before them.

ASE and WIFT (Women in Film and Television) NSW are jointly sponsoring a scheme to concentrate on establishing mentoring relationships for female assistant editors and/or editors. We aim to find a suitable mentor for participants in the scheme who will benefit from the advice and experience that mentor can provide.

To apply for the scheme you need to complete a questionnaire, supply a CV and a statement of purpose. Sometimes a prospective mentor will require you to supply examples of your work. All enquires should be directed to Beth Phelan or Sally Corbett at the WIFT office, ph: (02) 9332 2408 fax: 9380 4311

Since the WOW Film Festival and in particular the seminar on Post-production “On Track and in Sync”, we have received applications from three more prospective mentees. Nicolas Beauman, Denise Haslem, Henry Dangar and Simon James are among the editors who have agreed in principle to act as mentors.

New Editing Mentor Relationship Established
Dany Cooper, WIFT member and editor of The Well and Angel Baby has agreed to act as a mentor to Philippa Rowlands in the new year. Dany is in Canada at the moment working on Michael Rymer’s latest film In Too Deep and is hoping to bring the post production work back to Australia. Philippa is currently working as a freelance editor on documentaries, TV series, commercials and music videos and is wanting to pursue high-end documentary and drama work in feature films and TV.

Ongoing Mentor Relationship
In late 1996 a successful mentoring relationship was established between Natalia Ortiz and Emma Hay. Following is a summary of a conversation I had with Natalia Ortiz about the benefits of that relationship. We encourage any of you who may be interested to give us a call at the WIFT office.

- Sally Corbett

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<i>Sally Corbett spoke to Natalia Ortiz.</i>

Natalia Ortiz came to Australia from Spain just four years ago, knowing that she wanted to work in the Australian Film Industry, but a little uncertain as to her focus. Now in late 1998 she is working in post production on Babe II at Kennedy Miller and was 1st assistant editor of Radiance (director Rachael Perkins).

Natalia has been a participant in the WIFT Mentor Scheme since late 1996 and her mentor is Emma Hay, editor of features and documentaries such as Gino, 1993 feature; The Christmas Cake, Cultural Patterns, Straight from Yudaman’s Mouth and Kosky in Paradise; TV documentaries. Harriet McKern the co-ordinator of the mentor scheme when Natalia first applied suggested that she, Natalia, needed to define her direction and gain a little more experience in her chosen field of editing before meeting with a mentor. Natalia did just that and came back to Harriet a year later with some experience and Emma Hay agreed to mentor Natalia.

Natalia describes the Mentor scheme as having been crucial to her progress in the industry. Her first meeting with Emma Hay was memorable as she was able to question Natalia’s commitment and have her realise the importance of being focused and clear that this was what she really wanted to do. The assistance that Emma Hay offered Natalia was varied. For example, Natalia working on her second film I, Eugeinia (director Gabrielle Finani) had to run the cutting room by herself. She literally had to set up the cutting room, find equipment and get it operating. She was able to talk with Emma Hay often, getting advice on where to locate equipment, how to set it up and how to approach the project. The film won a Dendy Award in 1998. There have been times when Emma Hay has been able to advise on contractual issues, technical issues and discuss artistic decisions. Natalia describes her relationship with Emma Hay now as a friend and work collegue. She likes it when Emma reminds her in times when she feels discouraged, that this work is what she has chosen to do, this is her working life, and reminds her of the first conversation they had together.

Natalia Ortiz 1st assistant editor Dags, I, Eugeinia, Fresh Air, Calcutta Christmas, Radiance, Les Darcy -The Maitland Wonder, Babe II.

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by Andrew Brinsmead

Over 90 members of Melbourne's Post Production community and several producers attended 1st Assembly Post Production Forum on Saturday October 17 to examine the growing problems in post production. The afternoon's discussions covered a broad range of topics & ended in a series of resolutions that will be passed onto various funding bodies & industry associations.

The afternoon was split into two sessions chaired by Denise Haslem. The first panel, with editors Glen Newnham and Mark Atkin and producer Daniel Scharf looked at the impact of new technologies on post production. The second panel with producer Jane Scott and editor Jill Bilcock looked at people's expectations of post production.

In the first session, Scharf explained the mechanics of film and television budgeting and how it affects post production planning and schedules. He said many problems occurred because producers lacked a full under standing of post production and didn't plan accurately. One of the most difficult problems facing producers was the time-lag between budgeting and funding.

With the regimented nature of television and feature film production in Australia, producers often impose budget models from one production onto another with extremely different requirements.

Many agreed on the need for post production staff to be involved in both pre-production planning and budgeting. Scharf said most funding bodies go to great lengths to quarantine the post production portion of the budget, but some producers find ways to access this area of the budget during the production phase. Of course, this leads to budget shortfalls during post production.

In regard to scheduling both Scharf and Bilcock agreed goodwill and flexible attitudes are required in post production from producers and post-production staff, but Glenn Newnham pointed out that film crews expect to be paid for overtime, whereas it's very rare for post- production crews to be. Jane Scott pointed out that with the number of financial obligations placed on producers, it's often difficult to meet everybody's wishes because of budgetary squeezes.

A major theme to emerge was the need for further post production education throughout the industry. Doran Kippen from Sound post house Music and Effects pointed out that post production people were having to teach emerging filmmakers about the realities of filmmaking.

The problem of emerging editors was looked at from several angles with Haslem pointing out that funding bodies are looking to back up new director-producer teams with experienced editors with the net result that fewer new editors are being given a chance to cut material. Cinemedia documentary manager Steve Warne supported this by saying funding bodies generally want to rely on experienced editors to ensure projects are completed successfully.

Jill Bilcock offers to mentor her previous assistants when they take on their first editing jobs. She also impressed on the need to allow assistant editors to have some creative input and ensures that her assistants cut at least one scene and aren't just performing menial post production tasks such as digitizing material.

The forum kept returning to the need for continued training and support of assistant editors. Most agreed the best method of training was the traditional system of apprenticeship as an assistant editor, although Complete Post managing director Chris Schwarze cited the pilot Certificate In Film and Television Post Production course currently being run by the AFTRS in Melbourne as being extremely valuable as it exposed students to a broader range of technical abilities and equipment than is normally encountered by assistant editors.

One of the most inspiring talks came from Jill Bilcock who stressed the need for editors to insist on what they want in post. She referred to the situation in Head On where Jane Scott had budgeted the cut to be done on 16mm. Jill insisted on cutting on the computer of her choice. This meant Scott had to re-budget.

Heated discussion centred around the role of the post production supervisor, how they should be trained and where they should come in the production hierarchy. Although post production supervisors can be a blessing, many felt they could also be a hindrance. Most felt the role needed to be clearly defined. Editor Ralph Strasser pointed out that once editors supervised every area of post production and were seen as the head of post production, now they're leaving the responsibility to others which has led to a diminished status and role. Both Strasser and Bilcock agreed that editors need to have a broad overview of post production so they know how their work affects others down the line.

The conference ended with a number of resolutions made to be passed on to various funding bodies, industry groups such as the Screen Producer's Association of Australia & the Australian Screen Directors' Association as well as film & television training schools. It's hoped that these resolutions will lead to a greater understanding of what is happening in post production today which in turn will lead to more effective planning.

The recommendations of the First Assembly Post Production Forum are:

* Commitment to on-going training/education in post production and new technologies by all involved personnel including producers, directors, editors, assistant editors and post production supervisors.

* Commitment by editors to encourage on the job training for assistant editors as well as training in all areas of post production.

* The ASE to negotiate for assistant editor apprenticeship schemes, especially in the field of documentaries, and to seek encouragement from producers and directors to support such schemes.

* Editors to be consulted in pre-production about their requirements and booked through to the end of post production.

* Support new editors in first cutting jobs by allowing directors the right to have the editor of their choice and senior editors the ability to assist through a creative mentorship scheme.

* The role of Post Production Supervisor be clearly defined for each production.

* The employment of Post Production Supervisors where budgets allow.

* Editors encouraged to understand post production pathways of each individual job (as each job is so different) through communication with post production supervisor.

* The ASE to commit to promoting the profile of post production through articles in publications.

* Continued liaison between ASE, SPAA, ASDA and other guilds and associations with the formation of a working group to continue the dialogue and follow up the recommendations of this forum.

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Craig Utian reports from the Editor's Preview Tour!

Spectrum Films, Fox Studios - Moore Park opened its doors to ASE members for a sneak preview of the future in post production. Editor Mike Honey, who is overseeing the fit-out, generously donated an afternoon to guide approximately 50 curious visitors around the facility.

On entering the facility, formally the Macquarie Pavilion, you are reminded this is still a work in progress. Until recently this was one large hall. On turning the corner however, you find yourself in a large, naturally lit common area. This central hub of the facility will provide editors the opportunity to stretch their legs and rest their eyes. A fully equipped kitchen is available for meal breaks or coffee refills. The high ceiling and modern décor had many envious of those who come here to work.

But what about the editing facilities! Although not quite completed, Spectrum Films has been operating at the site in a limited form since September 14. Limited capacity is however an understatement with productions including “Farscape”, “The Matrix”, and “Babe 2” already using the facility. The new Bruce Beresford film, “Double Jeopardy”, although shot oversees begins post here in late October. “Mr. Accident”, staring Yahoo Serious, begins shooting on November 2, will also finish here. Completion of the major construction work is expected by the end of October. On completion the facility will house 20 Avid Editing suites. Utilising the new Avid MediaShare F/C (fibre channel) all Avid ’workstations’ are networked to a central storage device. This Avid Media Share Drive Enclosure allows almost limitless storage. The MediaShare system means that, depending on requirements, 9 Avid workstations may access the same frame at the same time.

The facility will also include a shared assistant’s room with 3 workstations and two sound theatres for recording ADR. These theatres are also expected to be operational in late October. Large productions may choose a dedicated Avid suite as the assistant’s room.

Spectrum Films located in the Arthur Smith Pavilion has created an unique editing facility. The options available make this Australia’s premier post production editing facility.

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By James Manche

If you’re not a company and have tax deducted by your employer or production company, then you’re entitled to holiday pay, superannuation, and the employer has to cover your workers compensation insurance. I am not a company. I’m a freelance editor who has tax deducted by the employer, and in twelve years I’ve got holiday pay fairly regularly. I believe I’m fairly unusual.

Because I know I’m supposed to get it I’ve even got used to asking for it when I don’t, and that usually works.

After one job, a very long job no so long ago, I didn’t get it at first but then I asked for it, and was promptly given a cheque for over $2,500, just for asking for it. But recently I asked for it and they acted like they didn’t know what I was talking about. I was told simply that they didn’t budget for it, that they didn’t have the money and couldn’t pay it, and that they were advised by their completion guarantor that they didn’t have to. Later I learnt from a reliable source that they actually did budget for it but had spent it. They balanced the budget with my, and everyone else’s, holiday pay. After some correspondence I eventually dropped it, as I didn’t want to fall out with the Producers. But in the meantime I made some inquiries to be sure I knew exactly what my rights were.

I spoke to Lynn Gailey at MEAA, the Department of Industrial Relations, the FFC, completion guarantors, and film lawyer Michael Frankel. I was surprised at the differences of opinion. A representative at the FFC told me it’s generally paid on drama production but not on documentary, because budgets are low and productions can’t afford it, as if it wasn’t polite to ask. But if that’s why I hadn’t got it, because I was working on a documentary, then why had I got it on several other documentaries? I was then told by a completion guarantor that it’s included in the rate on documentaries, like with casual workers.

Film Australia, for example, does include it in the rate. You’re contracted to that effect, and it’s all up front. But most employers don’t do that. Film Australia contracts exclusively under the Film Australia Agreement, whereas most producers or production companies contract you under Industry Awards, and while the contracts often don’t specifically mention holiday pay, the Awards under which you’re contracted entitle you to it, independently of the rate. Or alternatively, producers don’t give you a contract at all. In which case, I’m advised by the Department of Industrial Relations, they’re still obliged to pay holiday pay under the State Annual Holidays Act.

As I understand it from various discussions with the Department of Industrial Relations and MEAA, the situation in New South Wales at least, is as follows. Under the State Annual Holidays Act 1994 all employees are entitled to holiday pay, except when the employee enters into an independent contract or agreement specifying that entitlements are included in the agreed rate. The employee must literally sign away their rights to exempt the employer. According to Michael Frankel, the rules are pretty straight forward, there’s no ambiguity, and they’re there for everyone to see on the Internet at http://www.dir.nsw.gov.au. Furthermore if such an agreement is in place the employer is still obliged under the Industrial Relations Act to break it down in the weekly pay slip, as is done with casual workers, just to be sure there is no misunderstanding.

The Industry Awards are even more specific. MEAA is currently re-negotiating them with SPAA, but regarding holiday pay they will be much the same. They are quite specific about it not being included in the rate, that it’s a separate payment. Some of the fine print varies from drama to documentaries in relation to penalties and loading, but not to the eligibility of the holiday pay entitlement. Again. according to Lynn Gailey at MEAA, the rules are pretty straight forward there too. There is no ambiguity. You supposed to get roughly one twelfth of what you earn, again in holiday pay, to be paid periodically, or on termination of employment.

Whatever the law might be however, getting it can obviously be a problem. Especially when as I discovered, the completion guarantor and the FFC were advising the producer that they didn’t have to pay it. Under those circumstances producers aren’t likely to pay it. After all, if it did turn out to be a problem somewhere down the track, it’d ultimately become the completion guarantors responsibility, and I guess they’re prepared to bank on it not being a problem, especially if you’re don’t have a contract. Under those circumstances what do you do? If you’re a member you could call in the Union, and there’s always the Department of Industrial Relations if you want to make yourself really unpopular!

Producers and Production Companies are required by law to pay holiday pay, and in a separate instalment to your weekly wage. As with superannuation, they are required by law to pay it, but unlike super it’s payed directly to you. How you go about getting it is up to you, but having a contract certainly helps. I nearly always get a contract for drama but not documentary. Producers aren’t in the habit of exchanging contracts on documentaries. I think the ASE committee needs to talk to SPAA about contracts in general, but particularly with regard to documentaries, hopefully MEAA has already. But holiday pay is covered by State and Federal Law, and by Industry Awards, and it should be properly structured into budgets and appropriately payed, irrespective of whether you get a contract. The ASE committee and MEAA should also talk to the FFC and SPAA about insisting it is budgeted for, and about doing whatever they can to facilitate payment.

Maybe this means we’ll just end up negotiating salary packages like many other professionals. Though I’m not sure that it’s in our interest for holiday pay to be considered up front like that, as something that is bargained with. If it was we’d most probably end up negotiating the rate, only for the producer to turn around and break it down for us, which wouldn’t exactly be in the spirit of the law. I think we should try to maintain it as a separate payment independent of the rate, as specified under the Industry Awards, especially considering the prospect of a GST, which may see many Independent Contractors going back to PAYE. Whatever, I think it’s important to know exactly what you’re entitled to, as well as what you’re agreeing to when negotiating your fees. Are they planning to pay you holiday pay or not? It can’t be so arbitrary, a surprise or disappointment on concluding a job, and should be payed at least according to the letter the law, if not the spirit.