Imperfect EDL's

[robnairn]

Hello all,

I have been struggling with getting good quality edls from a lightworks to FCP4.

I have two main problems:

Firstly still frames are not written / read properly by one of the machines - In my FCP4 sequence the duration of the frame is correct and it is recognised as freeze frame. However there is no meaningful TC associated with the clip.

Secondly, if the speed of a clip is altered in LW no dissolves in or out of that shot (should they be applied in LW) will appear when FCP reads that edl.

Can anyone make suggestions as to what setting I should be using in the LW EDL export tool, as I think this is where the problem is. (I am formatting them as CMX-3600)

Many thanks in advance.

Rob Nairn

[Matthew]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robnairn
In my FCP4 sequence the duration of the frame is correct and it is recognised as freeze frame. However there is no meaningful TC associated with the clip.

Is there meaningful timecode in the LW sequence at that point? Have you looked at the EDL itself and can you see the correct timecode? It may be worth opening the EDL in a text editor and deleting any wierd stuff at the right point. Copy a bit of your EDL here and we'll have a look at it for you.

Secondly, if the speed of a clip is altered in LW no dissolves in or out of that shot (should they be applied in LW) will appear when FCP reads that edl.

I don't think you'll ever get this right. Its not a case of which system has the highest quality EDLs, they all work, its just that different makers implement them in different ways. You could try rendering the speed changes in LW (render a colourcorrection effect for the duration of the shot), but then your source timecodes for the shot may be incorrect.

You may have to UN-speedchange the shots in LW, noting where they are and what speedchange settings are, then make the EDL normally.

[Daz]

Lightworks EDLs have always been rubbish, in my experience. You probably need Wes Plate's "automatic duck", a handy tool for converting EDLs/bins/etc between formats. I've never used it (as I stay on the Avid platform), but it's supposed to be wonderful.

http://www.automaticduck.com/
Wes Plate <wes@automaticduck.com>

[shilby]

Sadly the Duck's not going to help you here as Wes hasn't written a transcoder for Lightworks yet, and unlikely to I'll guess.
CMX 3600 EDLS are usually the most accepted form of EDL's, but Daz is right that every NLE has it's own quirks when creating lists. So unfortunately you'll have to edit and experiment.
You could try this program
http://www.frogsoft.com/edl_toolkit.htm

Or, how about a variation on the old offline dub with BITC window trick.

Digitize your wilds into LW with your source BITC (burned in time code) turned on.

When offline is complete, make a dub of your sequence and digitize this into FCP.
Cut this vision onto the top most layer and sync this layer up to a shot in your imported EDL timeline, this will give you a source timecode reference to any clip in your conform timeline (as the dubbed offline will have source TC displayed on screen), not elegant and you will need to recreate FF and speed effects in FCP from scratch, but at least you will have an exact TC ref of your original cut.

Welcome to Online. ;-)

WaZ.

[robnairn]

Thanks for your comments.
As soon as I'm able I’ll post come a little edl for you to take a look at (digitising all day!) I'm pretty sure that there is valid TC in the LW edit, But I will check. I also like the idea of burning the BITC into the video. just a matter of whether the editor will be happy to work with it there.
Thanks again,
Rob

[Matthew]

I don't think CMX edls - even 3600 variety - were ever properly designed to handle motion control events and other effects. They've been handled by various manufacturers by inserting "comment" lines in the EDL. Also, EDLS were deigned for LINEAR onlines, not non-linear, hence all the optimization stretegies to minimise reelchanges and spooling. Thats what Shotlister EDLs were so good at, in their time. But nonlinear changes everything.

By using a common-denominator EDL like the CMX you are reducing chances of getting that sort of info across. Lightworks also supports Sony 9100 and GVG as well as its own proprietary EDL format, and in my experience the 9100 and GVG are often better understood by online controllers, I suppose because they are more recent and implement effects better. But I suppose the FCP only supports CMX?

Lightworks had their own way of implementing effects and layering into the early EDL formats, by creating B-reel EDLs and sub-EDLs at the end of the main EDL sequence. Each of these creates a new "effect" - almost like rendering an effect - which when inserted into the main EDL is perfectly OK. If you know how to read the EDL it works perfectly. Have a look at the end of the EDL, it will probably be there.

But every online editor has their own theory and many don't have the patience to do it lightworks' way. Its like optimised EDLs. If the online editor doesn't trust the optimisation and tries to sort the EDL manually the shit hits the fan because EDL just won't work. And if the Obline editor deletes all those silly "black" edits at the end of the EDL, then there will be a lot of stray audio and video bits left over. The EDLs aren't rubbish though Daz, they are just implemented differently. If FCP can't read it its just as likely to be a FCP problem - the developers haven't bothered to support that method or how to import a native Lightworks Project file.

On a more practical side, try this checklist (from my fading memory)

TURN B REELS OFF
A MODE OPTIMISATION
No PREREAD

that sort of thing.

BITC in video? Well Lightworks has since 1993 allowed you to burn timecode (source reel, source tc and record tc) on composite output to tape. Not necessary to *digitise* with timecode display on. WAY ahead of its time there ... ;-)

[Matthew]

COMMENT: List of Effects Reels Used
COMMENT: ==========================
COMMENT:
COMMENT: Effects Reel 002 :
COMMENT:
COMMENT: This is a 25% vertical squeeze of material on reel '002' from 02:05:29.07
COMMENT: to 02:05:33.07
COMMENT:
COMMENT: Effects Reel 005 :
COMMENT:
COMMENT: This is a mirror of material on reel '005' from 05:04:40.13
COMMENT: to 05:04:43.20
COMMENT:

001 300 V C 00:20:34:00 00:21:04:20 01:00:00:00 01:00:30:20
002 004 V C 04:01:22:05 04:01:30:00 01:00:30:20 01:00:38:15
003 300 V C 00:20:59:09 00:21:01:12 01:00:38:15 01:00:40:18
003 007 V D 050 07:12:40:05 07:12:47:21 01:00:40:18 01:00:48:09
004 007 V C 07:12:47:21 07:12:47:21 01:00:48:09 01:00:48:09
004 010 V D 030 10:01:47:04 10:01:54:23 01:00:48:09 01:00:56:03
005 010 V C 10:01:54:23 10:01:54:23 01:00:56:03 01:00:56:03
005 300 V D 045 00:20:39:20 00:20:42:07 01:00:56:03 01:00:58:15
006 910 V C 00:00:23:02 00:00:37:09 01:00:58:15 01:01:12:22
006 003 V D 050 03:09:12:03 03:09:18:06 01:01:12:22 01:01:19:00
[... snip lots of events ...]
052 004 V C 04:23:34:03 04:23:37:10 01:05:18:01 01:05:21:08
053 004 V C 04:26:59:04 04:27:02:14 01:05:21:08 01:05:24:18
054 005 V C 05:04:40:13 05:04:43:19 01:05:24:18 01:05:27:24
055 002 V C 02:05:29:07 02:05:33:06 01:05:27:24 01:05:31:23
056 005 V C 05:03:02:15 05:03:04:23 01:05:31:23 01:05:34:06
057 005 V C 05:03:50:13 05:03:57:13 01:05:34:06 01:05:41:06
058 002 V C 02:05:41:02 02:05:43:21 01:05:41:06 01:05:44:00
059 002 V C 02:07:01:22 02:07:05:07 01:05:44:00 01:05:47:10
060 002 V C 02:06:01:07 02:06:03:24 01:05:47:10 01:05:50:02
061 002 V C 02:06:37:24 02:06:43:01 01:05:50:02 01:05:55:04
062 005 V C 05:04:13:04 05:04:15:21 01:05:55:04 01:05:57:21
063 002 V C 02:06:03:01 02:06:05:17 01:05:57:21 01:06:00:12
064 001 V C 01:02:26:21 01:02:32:01 01:06:00:12 01:06:05:17
065 001 V C 01:17:16:07 01:17:21:12 01:06:05:17 01:06:10:22
066 001 V C 01:13:24:21 01:13:26:16 01:06:10:22 01:06:12:17



the above is an example of how Lightworks implements effects that are not supported by the EDL format itself.

If you make a reel called 002 by performing the effect described in the comment and insert the result into the edit, all will be OK.

Its the same way FILM opticals are done traditionally.

[robnairn]

Hi Mathew,
FCP supports these formats:
CMX 340
CMX 3600
Sony 5000
Sony 9100
GVG 4 Plus
I will put together a test edit using the last two and see what I get when I can. However I think I may have tried other formats other CMX and not had much luck. But I might have better luck this time.

Can I be a pain and get you to describe further how use the effects reels? Do you mean you make up a tape with those effects on it or you mean just through the effects tool in LW?

Cheers,
Rob

[Daz]

Does that mean The Duck was in fact a red herring?

[Matthew]

Originally posted by robnairn
Can I be a pain and get you to describe further how use the effects reels? Do you mean you make up a tape with those effects on it?

Yes, that's the way it was done way back in the linear days.

I think in the above example, its confusing because I "faked" it a bit to show you, and forgot to make the effects reels distinct, so in fact there are several shots from reel 002 and reel 005, but only one of each are effects! Merde alors!

Lightworks, I recall, does make up unique reel numbers for the effects reels. I just forgot that bit, sorry.

So, in a nonlinear world you can just use the effects reels as instructions on how to make a mini-sequence with effect, then render it, then insert in final sequence as the main EDL indicates. Its the way you'd make up the effect in the first place probably.

As for the duck ... I thought I smelt something fishy ;-)

Go on, gimme a bit of EDL I can chew on ...

[robnairn]

Hey Matthew,

" So, in a nonlinear world you can just use the effects reels as instructions on how to make a mini-sequence with effect"
Do you mean using a dump reel?

I am keeen to get some EDL to you but I may not haave a chance until the end of Monday. See what I can do...
Thanks for being keen to help.
Cheers,
Rob

[Matthew]

Originally posted by robnairn
" So, in a nonlinear world you can just use the effects reels as instructions on how to make a mini-sequence with effect"
Do you mean using a dump reel?

no, because in Nonlinear suites dump reels don't exist, do they?

where it says, in my example,

COMMENT: Effects Reel 002 :
COMMENT:
COMMENT: This is a 25% vertical squeeze of material on reel '002' from 02:05:29.07
COMMENT: to 02:05:33.07

just mark the selected footage 02:05:29.07 - 02:05:33.07 in reel 002, do the squeeze effect and render it, then insert that into the timeline at the right point, in this case at 01:05:27:24.

[robnairn]

hi Matthew,
i think i am starting to catch on.
Shall give it a go and see what I come up with, in my case using a still frame.
Cheers,
Rob

[rachelw]

Am finding this very interesting, have always had big problems with fx in edls - especially ramped shots - I think it's also about going cross-platform into online...am curious to see if there's a better way of getting it done - I usually am very meticulous with all material to be tinkered with in offline, especially when in many systems creating a time change creates a destructive render - new code, new clip - and you may totally loose your ref. to original material. Depends on the thought put into the work, and the methods in the madness, and more importantly what system u are using....it is very frustrating when you have to create these vfx in offline, knowing that it's going to be a total pain to re-create later....looking forward to some serious solutions to this conundrum!!

[Matthew]

In the Lightworks world we always tried to save galleries (bins) of the components of any effects rendered so that if the system itself got any bits missing we could trace back the originals.

I think a NOTES field for each shot in a sequence that could be reliably printed with an EDL would be a great help. You could stick all sorts of information in there about how you did the effect.

But very few manufacturers support this freeform "notes" idea, n'est-ce pas?

[JWRL]

This is going to be long, technical, and may seem like an irrelevancy but....

Since I was present at AAV when the CMX conversions to PAL were written (by US programmer David Morgenstern) I know a little about the CMX specification. At that stage there was only one audio channel supported, and varispeed was only achievable using external video disc hardware, and was added to the CMX specification as an afterthought. In fact anything other than real time playback with cuts, dissolves, limited wipes and keys is an afterthought.

Additionally, the original CMX specification described the field delimiters as consisting of "one or more whitespace characters". In practice in this context whitespace characters means spaces or tabs. This means that a legal CMX EDL can have the event number then one or more spaces, reel number or source name (black or auxiliary source), then one or more spaces, and so on. THE CLASSIC PRINTED LAYOUT IS THAT WAY FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF HUMAN READERS. The parsing software to be truly CMX compliant should not care.

I was also part of the original conference on EDL formats (however briefly) for Lightworks, and know that they went to considerable lengths to get it right. Their EDLs are most definitely not rubbish. Where there are problems importing Lightworks generated EDLs, the problem is usually that the parser in the importing program uses fixed position field identification.

Avid used to do this (I don't know whether they still do) and accordingly had to implement a separate parser for each CMX variant reported to them. (At one stage they were in the somewhat farcical position that they could not reliably import CMX format EDLs generated on their own equipment.) I suspect that FCP does the same thing, since it also seems to find it necessary to have a range of CMX formats, which is often a clue.

Some years ago I wrote my own general purpose parser based on the correct specification. In doing that, I discovered that I could hit it with any format CMX EDL, and with a small piece of additonal code, any GVG, ACE and Sony EDLs without having to tell the software what to expect! If I can do it as an amateur programmer, why can't the professionals?

As an aside, you will all know that when you export a Sony series EDL the saved file is usually unreadable to the human eye, except (again) when created by Lightworks. This is because Sony used to rely on the fact that the Sony printer connected to their edit systems didn't care whether there was an eighth bit set on the data or not, so they used that bit as a parity bit. However every Sony edit system (with the possible exception of the 5000) stripped that bit off before parsing. It therefore served no purpose and was totally redundant. So Lightworks opted not to set it at all. And their EDLs remained humanly readable.

[Matthew]

lovely!

[Daz]

and I thought that would be difficult...

[JWRL]

I actually left the point of my previous rant off the posting. It is this: In this day and age I think that it is unfortunate that we are still stuck using an edit description language designed at a time when video was recorded on 2" quadruplex videotape! (Not that this helps with the original problem at all)....