24fps problem - Help

[Matthew]

Can anyone help this gentleman??

===

Hi Matthew,

I'm not actually an editor, I'm a producer and it has taken me to join your forum to get a definitive answer on a 24fps problem I have.

This is a fantastic forum with people like yourself who know what they are talking about.

I have a huge problem.

We shot a short film on 35mm at 24fps.

Every other film I've short was telecined at 25fps. On this occasion we were advised by a very senior and compotent telecine company in London to do it at 24fps.

The result is that we editied the film as a 24 project in V11 Avid Film Composer.

I knew this didn't feel right but they were positive it works.

The result is that the film was cut in the usual 24 project way.

Our edls and playouts are strange.

The 24 beta playout jumps like mad.

The 25 beta playout kicks once like a usual 24 would.

We are planning to finish the film digitally so we will re scan out neg and conform then eventually shoot back onto film.

I would be so grateful if you could let me know if this is going to work or do we have to re telecine at 25fps and cut the film again.

Nobody in London has final answer.

Desperate and glad to have found this site.

Regards

Dominic

dominic@ironfilms.co.uk

[Daz]

The reason your playouts 'kick around' is that to put 24fps on a tape (25fps) the telecine has to invent an extra frame every second - in fact, it's probably inventing 2 extra fields, so you're seeing 2 little kicks every second. When you finish onto 24fps film everything SHOULD be fine, as long as your facility knows what they're doing.

If you re-run your film at 25fps, it will look great on tape, but the trouble is it will be TOO FAST! About 4% faster than it should be. You'll have to speed up your sound, music...don't go there. Mind you, there used to be a facility for digitising at 25fps i.e. frame for video frame & then using the Avid to slow the footage down to the correct speed. I haven't had to do this for a while so I'm not sure if that's still the case.

Where are you working, by the way? Reason I ask is, I'm also in London.

Good Luck!

daz

[dominic@ironfilms.co.uk]

Hi Everyone,

I'd apprecite any help or comments regarding my 24fps / 25fps issue.

Has anyone edited a film that was shot at 24, telecined at 24 and edited as a 24 project on Avid.

Regards

Dominic

[Daz]

Here's a bit more on the subject:

Dom:
The problem we have is that the film was telecined at 24fps instead of
the usual 25fps. have you ever dealt with and edited a film like this?

Daz:
I have used the 24fps method, in fact, the last time I worked on a
feature it was the only method. But I dislike it for the reason
you've pointed out i.e. the glitches - particularly noticeable on
smooth pans or tracking shots. The glitches aren't really there, they
disappear when the neg is cut & prints are made. Nevertheless, they
make it hard to judge camera performance.

Dom:
I agree with your comments but how did you take in the 24 telecined betas
and how did you set the avid up and playout? Also when we sync back up
the 24 playout is running too slow for the sound or the sound is
running too fast.

Daz:
Oh dear. Sound out of sync is bad. If the pictures are running too
slow then it sounds like your Avid thinks its handling 24fps
telecined at 25fps and slowing it down to true speed playback. That
indicates an incorrect setting on your avid.

Dom:
So how would you digitize in a film shot at 24fps, telecined at 24fps? Do
you treat it as 25fps cause the 2 extra fields are already added before it
goes it cheating the avid? If so then do you just play the sound in at a 100%
and sync it. Really need to know the process from start to finish where the
avid is concerned?

Daz:
As far as I understand it, if you telecine at 24fps you don't require
pulldown, as the sound & picture are already running at the correct
speed. When you generate you EDL everything should be peachy. This is
the way I have operated on the 2 film projects I've been involved
with - camera @ 24fps, telecine at 24fps, sound stays in sync, no
pulldown required, picture glitches a bit on tape but is otherwise ok.

But if things are going out of sync for you during playback then
obviously you have a problem. For starters, I would try playback
without pulldown. If your sound is running fast what that really
means is your picture is too slow i.e. there is an extra frame (2
fields) per second added by the telecine to make things right, but
then with pulldown your Avid is effectively adding another frame -
perhaps that's why your pix are extra glitchy!

It's a bit hard to know where it's gone wrong for you without knowing
the full story. Were your pix & sound put in separately? What were
the settings on the Avid when the work was digitised? What are they
during playback? Is your playback always out of sync? The list goes
on...

Below is from the Avid web site, it might be helpful, although I
notice it was written 3 years ago:


daz

[Daz]

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PAL Film Method 2 Workflow & Tips
Method 2 for PAL film editing in the Composer involves synching dailies in the Avid and not during telecine.

Why use Method 2? Sound dailies can be used throughout post. If you sync during transfer, the sound is sped up 4.167% and cannot be used for final mix.

PRODUCTION
Shoot film @ 24fps.
Record sound @ 50Hz with or without 25fps TC.

TELECINE
NOTE: Avid does not support PAL Pulldown. Verify the burn-ins or check frames 12 (or 13) and 24 for 3 fields.

Transfer MOS @ 25fps.

HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS:
PAL deck.
PAL BB Gen.
PAL-capable full screen monitor.

Pulldown on VSD set to 1.0 for all digitizing.
Make sure VSD is set to PAL. (Switch is on the back of the box).

SOFTWARE SETTINGS:
Film Settings are set to come in at FILM RATE (100%).

An interesting fact is that one can mix Method 1 & 2, but will only hear Audio in whatever Setting has been selected. Audio TC in a mixed Method setup would be problematic - this is not advised.

Select PAL film project.
Check Film Options.
Choose 24fps editing.
Choose proper film format (35/4, 16, etc.)


This Tip/Technique applies to the following Avid product(s): Film Composer, Film Composer NT, FilmScribe, Media Composer, Media Composer NT
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Created 12/03/1999 (updated 12/13/1999).

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[Daz]

Reading that through again, it looks to me like 'Avid does not support PAL pulldown' is the key phrase. Turn your pulldown off. You may even need to recapture your pix without pulldown. Do a test - recapture one show & see if it stays in sync.

daz