Cutting documentaries shot in HDV

[Walter Mac]

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has been cutting footage shot in HDV and then captured in FCP 5.

Does HD footage take up more drive storage space than Standard Definition?

Do you need a faster computer processor to cut HD?

How many GB would 30 hours of HD rushes require?

What deck did you use to capture the rushes - did you use a firewire connection?

Any light that could be thrown on the subject would be very much appreciated.

cheers,
Walter

[Jude]

HDV isn't "real" HD. Its physical size is the same as DV. That means there is just more information crammed into the same space as 'normal' DV.

You need a HDV deck (or camera) to do the capture - and I think that there are actually two different flavours of HDV, so you need the same brand of deck or camera as the one it was shot on.

You need a special kind of monitor/card to view it, and you apparently need to avoid fast camera moves or zooms when using it because of 'jitters'.

Also, it takes a long time to render.

I haven't personally used it yet, but the reports coming in are not exactly glowing, however, some people have told me that it looks great.

Apple says "Native HDV Support
Unlike other solutions, Final Cut Pro 5 acquires HDV media via FireWire and keeps it in the original format, transferring it into the system without any generation loss. Output via FireWire back to an HDV camera or deck, or transfer your native HDV to DVD Studio Pro 4 for an end-to-end native HDV workflow."

There is a bit of a starter guide (although it is designed to sell HDVXDV, which you don't really need in FCP 5) here <http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/hdvxdv_wright.html>

[JWRL]

Originally posted by Jude
HDV isn't "real" HD. Its physical size is the same as DV. That means there is just more information crammed into the same space as 'normal' DV.

Originally posted by Jude
Also, it takes a long time to render.


It's real in the sense that it is 1024 or 720 pixels high. It uses 8 bit 4:2:0 compression, as does DV, but it achieves the higher compression by changing the size of the groups of pixels (GOP) that are compressed in a block. As a result to display or manipulate this the CPU is required to do a lot more work. So you will definitely notice a severe performance hit - render times increase dramatically, and the number of RT strands that you can handle drop.

Originally posted by Jude
I think that there are actually two different flavours of HDV, so you need the same brand of deck or camera as the one it was shot on.


Definitely this can be a problem. In particular JVC have had problems with decks requiring firmware upgrades before NLEs can access them reliably. I haven't used their hardware but if JVC figures in your post-production chain make sure you have the latest firmware.

[E_Tedeschi]

I cut a short film over the summer in HDV. I went native in FCP5. Stuff I learnt:

- Definitely looks awesome. :)
- Native HDV preserves the quality of the vision, but it is native MPEG2 compression, which is incredibly taxing on your CPU for anything other than playback. Forget realtime if you a running a system designed for DV. I had sluggish responses on my Dual 2Ghz G5, and I tried it on my Powerbook G4 for kicks. Painful.
- Using an intermediate codec is a good option if your HDs are fast enough. What happend is the HDV stream gets converted into a constant I-frame compression, eliminating the MPEG2, thus making it easier on your CPU, but more taxing on your HD because of much bigger files. You may also suffer from a minimal loss on picture quality.
- JVC is a nightmare for anyone using an out-of-the-box solution. I recently assisted on a film shot in entirely in JVC HDV, and they came unstuck at post-time - even with JVC on-side to help with decks, firmware upgrades etc. FCP5 doesn't support the JVC format out of the box. Know what you are getting into before you go ahead.

Having said all that, HDV in FCP5 is definitely doable, but you will take a big performance hit on your system. And obviously at 4 times the frame size and resolution, rendering is very slow. A 4'30" short film grade took the best part of 20 mins or so to render on my system.

Hope this helps.

[Jude]

Hey E_ - did you notice any motion problems in any camera moves? I've seen some nasty artifacting and 'jitters' in samples, but was wondering if you had any problems with this?

Was there any fast movement in your film?

[E_Tedeschi]

Sorry, Jude. No, the whole thing was dialogue around a table. All very slow camera moves, so I didn't notice anything like that.

I understand, though, that if shot poorly this can happen. It's an issue common to all progressive scan formats.

Enzo.

[Jude]

Ta Enzo. All the examples I've seen have been NTSC, so I was wondering if it was the same in PAL, but the progressive scan thing makes sense.

[editboxer]

funny it takes a loooong time to render, but it does help if you get
a kick-bum processor.

Hey E, have you had problems dumping your material back to hdv tape?
One solution that I found in one of the forums was that if it happens, just
flatten it out as a quicktime movie and then dump it back. I haven't
had a chance to try it out cause am on the offline side of things but it
would be great if I can help out the online editor with some tips on a
workaround.

[E_Tedeschi]

Sorry, I'm no help there. But your workaround makes sense.

[editboxer]

Thanks for the prompt reply. do appreciate it heaps, sorry for not being able to do the same myself. Been sooo busy these past few days its not funny.

But its good to feel needed, though.
:)

[Jude]

I've got a HDV project on the horizon, which they want to deliver in Digibeta.

If I cut natively in HDV I can only use print to video to get out, so what intermediate format do people recommend to get to digibeta?

Also, any more war stories to share re cutting in HDV?

[editboxer]

Originally posted by Jude
I've got a HDV project on the horizon, which they want to deliver in Digibeta.

If I cut natively in HDV I can only use print to video to get out, so what intermediate format do people recommend to get to digibeta?

Also, any more war stories to share re cutting in HDV?

I can tell you but you have to pay me he he he...

Best recommendation is to get a blackmagic or Aja cards to playout straight to Digibeta. HDV crunches up your computer so make sure yours have the grunt. Not possible to playout HDV on edit to tape because it has to conform to the codec to make it fit on a normal DV tape, so you have to export is as another format (Uncompressed 8 or 10 bit or HDV exported to DVCProHD, then using blackmagic/ aja card to output using SDI to Digibeta. Footage rocks!

[E_Tedeschi]

Originally posted by Jude
I've got a HDV project on the horizon, which they want to deliver in Digibeta.

If I cut natively in HDV I can only use print to video to get out, so what intermediate format do people recommend to get to digibeta?


Jude,

If you're delivering on digi at the end of the day, would it not be a good idea to digitise the stuff as uncompressed SD and work off that? You might not be working with the 'full' res of HDV, but it may save you the headaches associated...

[editboxer]

Originally posted by E_Tedeschi
Jude,

If you're delivering on digi at the end of the day, would it not be a good idea to digitise the stuff as uncompressed SD and work off that? You might not be working with the 'full' res of HDV, but it may save you the headaches associated...


...or work off that :)

...its a budget thing, have the machine that has the grunt? go for native HDV edit , then, software output to whatever format you want OR edit using capture card (if you've got one) on uncompressed format. Both should be fine.

ok i'll shut up now. :P

[projectsplat]

Originally posted by Jude
[B]HDV isn't "real" HD. Its physical size is the same as DV. That means there is just more information crammed into the same space as 'normal' DV.

I just wanted to clarify this.

HDV is the same data rate as DV - 3.5MB/s. This means that they take up the same amount of space on the hard drive for the same amount of footage.
The difference between DV and HDV is size of the image.
-DV is 720x576
-Anamorphic DV is still 720x576, but pretends to be 1024x576
-HDV is 1440x1080 but pretends to be 1920x1080
- Panasonic DVC PRO HD is 1440x1080 pretending to be 1920x1080
-"real" HD is 1920x1080
-to confuse matters, the other "real" HD is 1280x720 (think Varicam shot at 720p)
- and I have just started working with 720p, and discovered that most of it is actually 960x720 pretending to be 1280x720

Cheers

Al

[Jude]

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. I'm looking into everything mentioned.

BTW projectsplat - thanks for that summary list - I had no idea that HDV was also emulating 1920x1080.

So many bloody numbers to remember :(

[E_Tedeschi]

Originally posted by projectsplat

-HDV is 1440x1080 but pretends to be 1920x1080
-"real" HD is 1920x1080
-to confuse matters, the other "real" HD is 1280x720 (think Varicam shot at 720p)

Then there's also JVC HDV which runs at 1280x720, but uses a shorter GOP than the 1080i variety.

;)

[Blin]

Using FCP5 and a Blackmagic card I was unable to capture HDV footage with time code. Is there some trick to it?

[projectsplat]

Originally posted by Blin
Using FCP5 and a Blackmagic card I was unable to capture HDV footage with time code. Is there some trick to it?

I will need more info on how you have it set-up to answer this properly, but will make some assumptions in order to make this quicker.

The only way to get TC, along with a HDV signal via a BlackMagic card is if you have a HDV deck that outputs HD-SDI. Now as far as I know, there is not one of those available yet. (I stand to be corrected...)

The best option is to ignore the BlackMagic card for capturing HDV.

Capture via FireWire using the built in HDV settings in FCP.
Once you have captured the footage (including the TC which comes along with the signal when you transfer via FireWire), you can throw it into an uncompressed 1080 timeline in FCP (using one of the BlackMagic presets) and render. This will take a while, but you will then get a nice clean uncompressed output, and be able to monitor in HD directly from your BlackMagic card.

Cheers

Al
- let me know if this makes sense. it was written between renders...

[rachelw]

I've noticed some jitters but I think it depends not only on the type of hdv solution but the lens system. I suppose the low-end consumer versions don't have options? A cinematographer I know was doing camera tests a few years back and at that stage even the expensive stuff couldn't do fast pans. Not sure where things are at now, but at that stage slow mo and pans and such were film shot and graded to match....

I can only recommend that if you are interested in a particular camera, do a test and put it through it's paces with the standard lens - if it gives you poor results then don't go there.

Seen some nice looking stuff thus far, but am not using it myself at the moment. Interesting point however is that distributors my director has been in dialogue with seem to be rather insistent that our future projects be HD...so will probably have to do some research soon - maybe it would be cool for us to open a forum strand road testing and rating HD gear as we come across it??

[CALM]

I've been working with the Sony HDV format, editing with FCP quite a bit of late...

I've found that you can downconvert to DV quality using the camera on capture. Then when your cut is ready to online, recap using one of the two HDV codecs... You obviously have to readjust sequence settings etc and be mindfull that all additional assets created with AE or Motion will have to be rendered HDV native.

The alternative of cutting and rendering HDV sequences while immersed in the initial cut is horrid... My G5 was performing like the old Blue & White G3.

[JieMing]

Timecode and HDV don't seem to play together. I have done some tests with both JVC and Sony cameras and their decks, and I haven't been able to get consistent TC from them. The best I've got was within 3 seconds accuracy. These cameras allow the user to setup all kinds of formats and TC options - some of which are incompatible (50i with Drop Frame TC?). I believe that importing your clips into FCP generates new TC starting at the moment the system dropped into record (unrepeatable). Is this correct?
At this time I would recommend bumping all footage to HDCam or similar, outputting an SD copy for edit, then conforming from HDCam. If you've shot a docco with hundreds of hours of rushes, choose the material you bump up carefully.

Ben.

[editboxer]

http://www.creativecow.net/articles/battistella_david/recapturing_HDV/

see if this solution works.

[E_Tedeschi]

Originally posted by JieMing
I believe that importing your clips into FCP generates new TC starting at the moment the system dropped into record (unrepeatable). Is this correct?


I think that you'll find this Stop/Start Detection to be a setting you can switch off. For DV it is set to off by default, for HDV on by default. Look in your user preferences.

This won't help if you have a timecode irregularity or break (like a gap in your control track).

[Matthew]

i beilieve the problem with the jittery pans is that a progressive scan system work in 25 fps not 50 frames a sec as we are used to in video. But uses a faster video shutter speed. So not only are we looking at less images per second, they are usually HD sharp with no motion blur. That causes jitter. I am guessing that if its possible to slow the shutter down to say 1/60th like film, you'll get a similar film look. And film jitters too, at certain speeds. And all the above doesn't take into account HDV compression nasties that may amplify the effect.

That's how i see it, anyway. Experts - please correct me if my understanding is off the mark.

[Walker21]

I know its been awhile since anyone has posted to this thread, but I thought I'd give it a go anyway. I'm about to start a few projects on HDV to be edited most likely on a 1.67GHz powerbook, 2GB RAM, with an external firewire drive of 250GB. I'm currently cutting on an Avid Xpress Pro 4.5.1, which doesn't handle HDV. The director I'm working with has FCP5.1.2, so I have access to that (although I've never cut on FCP before), or I can upgrade my Avid to 5.6.

I was just wondering which people thought handled HDV best, and what workarounds I should use for the above computer I'll be using. I also was looking at capturing via firewire.

I don't have any experience with HDV, so was hoping to find out if anyone has any advice.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Jude]

I think you will find working with HDV on a 1.6 gig laptop very slow. There's a lot of maths going on when you use it.

There's a good article about FCP and native HDV here <http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=33410>

[JieMing]

Nice posts, everyone. I followed the links and learned a lot.

Thanks,

Ben.

[almyers]

Originally posted by E_Tedeschi

- JVC is a nightmare for anyone using an out-of-the-box solution. I recently assisted on a film shot in entirely in JVC HDV, and they came unstuck at post-time - even with JVC on-side to help with decks, firmware upgrades etc. FCP5 doesn't support the JVC format out of the box. Know what you are getting into before you go ahead.


I'm about to start on a project using a JVC GY-HD111E camera., which I'll be using for the digitising. I've been reading a lot of press from JVC and Apple saying Final Cut Pro 5.1 and this camera are a marriage made in heaven. Have they sorted themselves out since your experience or am I in "Danger, Will Robinson" territory?

[E_Tedeschi]

Very good question. I haven't upgraded yet (my install discs are sitting on the shelf, beckoning...), it may be true.

Double-check the shooting format and make sure it's supported. The project I worked on came unstuck because they shot on 720p25. No go at the time... all the workarounds was where it went to the dogs.

In fact, the film I am working on at the moment was shot on JVC, directly to a firestor, and when JVC sent through the .mov upgrade for the camera and firestor, it completely buggered everything up, and days of shoottime were lost.

Just go in with your eyes wide open, I say!

Good luck with it, and do let us know how you go.

[almyers]

So far so good. I've digitised and done a rough cut with no problems. This was shot on 720p25. From what I can tell the fun and games come in when trying to watch it on an external monitor. I'm planning on burning DVDs of various edits so I can check it out on a TV. Would converting it to standard DV be a better workaround?

[Jude]

You might want to have a look at the matrox MXO http://www.matrox.com/video/products/mxo/home.cfm

Quite inexpensive for HD monitoring.

Lots of Mac users still pissed off at Matrox for discontinuing support on another product, though.

[almyers]

I'm experiencing some HDV weirdness in DVD Studio Pro

I exported a HDV version of a rough cut from FCP5 using Quicktime Movie and was able to import it into DSP and burn a DVD.

Since then I haven't been able to import HDV files into DSP. It says "incompatible format". Even when I use the original HDV file I get the same message. I can't even import the original FCP file into a new DSP project.

I've tried exporting in different HDV formats, through FCP and Compressor and no joy.
No problems with SD files.

DSP is set to HD and Pal.

Can anyone explain this? It's doing my head in.

Thanks

[rachelw]

Hi - DSP is a bit cantankerous at times, and there's often been instances where it's chucked a wobbly on me, and generally done some kooky stuff.

Can you open the project that was successful without an error? Can you play back the track with the media without error? Can you add media of this type inside this particular project?

And have you done any interesting auto-updates lately? I noticed there was a quicktime update available the other day. I don't know if it's possible that there's a conflict there? Check your Quicktime version info and perhaps you should trawl the apple forums for info on this...?

Couple of things to consider.

Trash your preferences to start with, and start a new project.

Set it up as you need, making sure that all your settings are sweet. Try to import one little file only into the asset manager. If it fails, try dragging and dropping it there instead.

If you have no joy, check the attributes of the file, and the project settings. Also, if you are using any form of pro video card, you might wish to run this through its paces, however if it's performing normally in FCP you should be sweet.

Double-check your export settings from FCP (I know you probably already have) but it can't hurt.

Try exporting a file you're having a problem handling, with different render output settings. Also, are you making self-contained movs or reference movs? sometimes DSP gets a bit cranky over reference movs.

If you really can't solve the problem, you might consider something drastic and annoying like reinstalling DSP....

But definately check the forums, if there's been an oversight with a quicktime update, the forums will be jumping with users getting steamy about it!

cheers n good luck!

Rachel

[almyers]

Thanks,

I've tried some of that but will run through the rest. I'd run out of things to try, good to know there are more options out there. I know it's going to be some silly setting somewhere.

[almyers]

Finally got this sorted. Turns out the update 4.1.2 is to blame. I reinstalled DSP and can burn HD DVDs again.

Thaks for your help.